african american patent attorneys

Don't miss the crucial news and insights you need to make informed legal decisions. We compared this job title with other job titles to see how gender percentages varied. With little recourse to the courts, African Americans would have found it nearly impossible to fight patent infringement, even if they had been represented by white attorneys, Cook wrote. Kasowitz Benson Torres partner Jonathan Waldrop credits equal parts luck, hard work and good timing for his success as a patent litigator. For questions call 1-877-256-2472 or contact us at [emailprotected], Shearman and Hogan Lovells Call Off Merger Talks, Early Reports: 2023 Am Law 200 Financials, Beyond Excess Capacity, Pooled Services and Automation Expedite Staff Layoffs, Dozens of Law Firms Grew Their Equity Partner Tier, Even as Profits and Demand Plummeted. Gain access to some of the most knowledgeable and experienced attorneys with our 2 bundle options! Researchers say the underrepresentation means the U.S. is missing out on significant inventions, with fewer perspectives and ideas in the pipeline. Boston, MA pays an annual average wage of $119,512, the highest in the US. The offices of patent attorneys (all white at the time) were in white-only commercial districts, hindering African American inventors from applying for patents, Cook wrote in an often-cited 2013 study that examined patent activity from 1870 to 1940. Report: Judicial Diversity Grew in California Courts Last Year, Its Important for All of Us To Lift as We Climb: Black Women Judges Discuss Diversifying the Courts, Skilled in the Art With Scott Graham: I'm So Glad We Had This Time Together, Semiconductor Pioneer Adds Legal Chief With Deep Deal-Making Experience, Finnegan, Henderson, Farabow, Garrett & Dunner, Law.com Editors and Analysts Offer Top Trends to Watch for 2023. Like most of America, Kirkland & Ellis partner Ellisen Turner has followed the horrific killings of Breonna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery and George Floyd. Yes, Patent Attorney jobs are male - dominated. For black lawyers, its even harder. Lisa Cook, an economics professor at Michigan State, linked declines in African American patenting to race riots and acts of violence, including the decimation of a once-thriving Black business community in Tulsa, Okla., in 1921 when a white racist mob killed hundreds of Black residents. I was lucky enough to land in places where people saw something in me, and I was willing to receive it, said Waldrop, who is the head of Kasowitzs Silicon Valley office. After speaking with a new partner from another office for 15 minutes, he said to her, Well, it was good chatting with you, but Ive really got to meet members of the management committee. That some lawyers have scientific backgrounds and use them was not on my radar, she said. US Supreme Court Rules That Patentee Maintains Burden of Proving Infringement in Actions Brought by Licensee, (Article, Board Oversight of IP Strategy (F&L National Directors Institute, 11/13), How Bad Is It, Counselor?What Do You Mean, I Don't Know?! The U.S. patent system, long regarded as among the worlds best, has also been stubbornly difficult for Black inventors to access. All of us should feel terrible about black women making up less than 1% of the equity partners in law firms, Gills said. Benjamin trained to be a teacher in a Massachusetts normal school, and in 1884 passed the civil service exam very creditably, allowing her to work as a federal government clerk in Washington D.C. Four years later, in 1888, she enrolled in the Medical School at Howard University, but dropped out in the first year. She too has heard general counsel or IP counsel say they dont know any qualified black patent attorneys. He tested me, and I know I was judged and questioned in a way, if I were a white man, I would not have been, she said. As a member of the American Bar Association, Ms. Allgaier belongs to its Business Law Section and its Section of Intellectual Property Law. People are often surprised when they learn that I practice patent litigation, said Ellisen Turner, IP practice group partner at Kirkland & Ellis LLP. Like millions of innovative individuals, MIRIAM E. BENJAMIN (1861-1947) was active in multiple inventive markets, as the patentee of two inventions, and assignee on another. To understand what its like for a black lawyer practicing IP, she said to imagine playing a game of Monopoly where you begin with no money or property and your opponents already have significant amounts of it. The executive explained that he had asked his legal department to compile a list of the top black attorneys at big law firms, in the interest of diversifying the companys outside teams. Jamaal was selected by judges, bar groups and fellow attorneys for his work, leadership and community service. Waldrop was asking himself, Do I really want to do this? Legalweek New York explores Business and Regulatory Trends, Technology and Talent drivers impacting law firms. The rarity of being a Black intellectual property lawyer in the United States hits home for the 1.7% of attorneys who fit that description. Lawyers do XYZ. Among the roughly 8% of students in ABA accredited law schools who are Black, many are first generation law students, and may not have strong insight regarding the structure of law school, Dike said. Judy W. Reed, of Washington, D.C., was the first African American woman to receive a patent. Your article was successfully shared with the contacts you provided. Another study, from Michigan State University researchers, found that from 1976 to 2008, African American inventors were awarded six patents per 1 million people, compared to 235 patents per 1 million for all U.S. inventors. That support is a difference maker as Waldrop is now the one with responsibility for building and integrating trial teams. Getting The Talent Balance Right: From Layoffs to Laterals to Mergers, How Can Firms Staff for Success? She was named among the 2015 Most Influential Black Lawyers by Savoy.*. Patents & Trademarks. Elijah McCoy was also the son of African American parents who escaped slavery. When I introduce myself at conferences or events and give my elevator pitch, the surprise is often palpable.. The National Association of Minority & Women Owned Law Firms (NAMWOLF), founded in 2001, is a nonprofit trade association comprised of minority and women owned law firms and other interested parties throughout the United States. And they all agree theres no good reason black patent attorneys shouldnt be on general counsels or IP counsels pitch lists. Likewise Foley & Lardner partner Jeanne Gills, a member of the firms management committee. Like most of America, Kirkland & Ellis partner Ellisen Turner has followed the horrific killings of Breonna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery and George Floyd. After finding the gender ratio, we wondered if the percentages of LGBT persons were different as well. Here is the list of the first female attorneys registered to practice before the U.S. Patent Office: 26 Griswold, Miss Edith J., 220 Broadway, New York, NY 198 Lockwood, Belva A., 619 F street, Washington, D. C. 612 Moran, Miss M. L., Washington, D. C. 685 King, Florence H., 1564 Monadnock Building, Chicago, Ill To view this content, please continue to their sites. Arent Fox LLP Arnold & Porter LLP Baker & Hostetler LLP Littler Mendelson P.C. 1928-2014. From a broader historical perspective, she was not the first black inventor (Thomas Jennings obtained a patent in 1821), nor the first black woman patentee (Judy W. Reed, in 1884, was prior). I say its largely an excuse, because there are people who do exist, she said. On the Early Breakfast Relebogile Mabotja spoke to the First Black Female Patent . Black IP lawyers have felt the impact of their race as early as their educational years. Her first patent, dated July 17, 1888, was for gong and signal chairs to be used in dining-rooms, in hotels, restaurants, steamboats, railroad-trains, theaters, the hall of the Congress of the United States, the halls of the legislatures of the various States, for the use of all deliberative bodies, and for the use of invalids in hospitals. She effectively used the media, and her improvement was widely publicized by newspaper articles and features in womens magazines. Patent grants allow us to objectively prove novelty and priority. Black or Afro-American Inventors PATENT AND INVENTION INDEX INVENTOR INVENTION DATE PATENT Page 1 of 10 A Abrams, W. B. Hame Attachment April 14, 1891 450,550 Allen, C. W. Self-Leveling Table November 1, 1898 613,436 Allen, J. Benjamin was granted patents for her ideas, and this is sufficient to demonstrate that her discoveries were original and distinct from previous inventions. BS, Molecular and Cellular Biology, Texas Southern University, MS, Molecular and Cellular Biology, Texas SouthernUniversity (Summa CumLaude, With High Honors), JD, University of Illinois Chicago Law School, Top 25 Trial Lawyers The National Trial Lawyers National Women (Specialty Division), Top Women Attorneys in Illinois Rising Stars, Top Attorneys in Illinois Rising Stars 2014-2021, Lifetime Member of Black Women Lawyers Association of Chicago, American Intellectual Property Law Association, National Association of Patent Practitioners, Texas Southern University Distinguished Alumni Award. "With little recourse to the courts, African Americans would have found it nearly impossible to fight patent infringement, even if they had been represented by white attorneys," Cook wrote. Research Summary. The decision essentially precluded Black people from patenting their inventions. There are also organizations like the New Voices Foundation, which helps women of color who are entrepreneurs, and the Chicago Inventors Organization, which has worked with a number of Black inventors. For someone like Kirklands Turner, its almost like he has to be not just good, but fantastic, superlative to succeed. Patent attorneys are most in-demand in Los Angeles, CA. Some of them, I made them be my advocate. The most common degree for patent attorneys is bachelor's degree 45% of patent attorneys earn that degree. Thomas L. Jennings (1791-1859), for example, learned tailoring and dry cleaning and carried on that business in New York City, where in 1821, at the age of 30, he received a patent for an improvement in dry cleaning processes perhaps the first black person in this country to have received one . Youre not looking hard enough., To contact the reporter on this story: Ian Lopez in Washington at ilopez@bloombergindustry.com, To contact the editors responsible for this story: Bernard Kohn at bkohn@bloombergindustry.com; Keith Perine at kperine@bloombergindustry.com, Learn more about a Bloomberg Law subscription, Left to right: Gaby Longsworth, Sterne Kessler; Azuka Dike, Banner Witcoff; Jeanne Gills, Foley & Lardner, Jonathan Hurtarte/Bloomberg Industry Group. This data shows how men and women predominate in the patent attorney position over time. NextGen IPs founder, Flo Donovan, said the only way to ensure in my life-time that minority inventors are included in the patent process was to create a foundation for this purpose.. "It's almost hard to know where to start . Filed Under: Of Patents and Prizes, Women in the Republic of Enterprise Tagged With: diversity, intellectual property, patents, women, The Mystery of the Missing Minority Millionairess, A Halloween Debate: Diversity and Exclusion, Who was the First U.S. Economics Professor? Clothes Line Support December 12, 1895 551,105 . Were still being judged, feared, devalued because of our race. Hollin can help you with patents, trademarks, and infringement issues. We service our national and international client base remotely and through our offices in Seattle, WA and affiliates in San Francisco, CA. Since 2008, she has focused her practice on patents related to medicine, medical imaging and instrumentation, scientific instruments, household products, and the life sciences. Avoiding Litigation Pitfalls through Effective Patent Prosecution (Article, Getting Off To A Good Start Drafting A Patent Application to Survive Prosecution and Litigation (AIPLA Annual Meeting, 2002), An IP Litigation Perspective on Licensing (PLI, 2001), Contributor to the IPLAC Litigation Committees Federal Circuit (2001 and 2002) Review of. from the John Marshall Law School. Phillips & Associates Attorneys at Law, PLLC Apart from racism, Black IP attorneys say there are distinct reasons why they make up just 1.7% of their specialty, a figure based on a survey by the American Intellectual Property Law Association. With nearly 450 attorneys in 13 offices nationwide, we take pride in our collaborative approach, our lasting relationships and our unique perspectives. ***I am indebted to Barbara Levergood of the Bowdoin College library and Rene Bosman at UNC-Chapel Hill, for their generous assistance in locating these bills. The Confederate states allowed slave owners to patent the inventions of their slaves. Thats the goal of the NextGen IP Foundation, a new program that helps grade-school students apply for patents. The most common ethnicity of patent attorneys is White (75.3%), followed by Hispanic or Latino (7.9%), Asian (6.5%) and Black or African American (5.7%). They benefit from a diversity of experiences in connection with among other things, witness preparation, formulating a trial story and approaches in relating to jurors. Metrics And Measurements for Law Departments (, How to Litigate in the Digital Decade (Defendants' Patent Counsel (doing damages expert cross-exam and closing argument) in Mock Trial Plenary Session involving patent and trademark infringement; AIPLA Mid -Winter Institute, 1/04), Bank One: Law Firm Diversity Symposium (Panelist, 12/03), A Woman and Minority Perspective on Client Development (CBA, 9/03), IP Litigation and Opinions Using Litigation Knowledge to Advance Career Success (NBA Annual Convention, 8/03). Jeanne M. Gills is a partner and intellectual property lawyer with Foley & Lardner LLP. In addition, the industry that employs the most patent attorneys is the professional industry. 5.0 (4) Our Firm Our legal system is largely comprised of two different types of cases: civil and criminal in both of which we are specializing. The average Patent Attorney is 46 years old. This is perfect for attorneys licensed in multiple jurisdictions or for attorneys that have fulfilled their CLE requirement but need to access resourceful information for their practice areas. Best Patent Attorneys near you Savage Consulting Expert Attorneys Established Law Firms In All Areas Of Law 5.0 (4) Miami, FL 33125 55 years in business Request a quote View Profile Vanst Law, LLC. Fax: 847-626-9610 She would similarly provoke efforts on her own behalf for over a decade in the House and Senate, claiming $20,000 (about $300,000 in current dollars) in workers compensation for injuries (including a strained heart and distress caused by noisy surroundings and overwork) she allegedly sustained while working as a clerk at the Government Printing Office in 1910. The patent application process was quite transparent, and many patentees completed it on their own account, later setting up businesses as intermediaries for others who preferred to delegate these bureaucratic tasks. I think that also plays a role because we dont see ourselves being owners of intellectual property.. Schwarz & Black LLP Attorneys Legal Service Plans (212) 858-7767 140 Broadway New York, NY 10005 5. Most of what we know about African American inventors came from the research of Henry E. Baker. Science, technology, engineering and math (STEM) education isnt required to practice IP law, including patent litigation. Drayton said he too benefited from a black role model: former Cooley partner Daniel Johnson Jr., now of the Dan Johnson Law Group. *The Illinois Supreme Court does not recognize certifications of specialties in the practice of law and no award or recognition is a requirement to practice law in Illinois. Learn about patents, patent searches, trademarks, copyrights, and trade secrets in these resources and guides. Women Earn 93 For Every $1 Earned By Men. Patent attorneys earn the most in Massachusetts, where the average patent attorney salary is $117,586. Well-versed in all aspects of intellectual property law, Jamaal focuses his practice on preparing and prosecuting patents in the U.S. and abroad. He believes that, with the pandemic as a backdrop, the message is getting through that we are all one community that must watch out for each other and take active steps to keep each other safe, Turner said. Protecting And Enforcing Trade Secrets (AIPLA 2016 Spring Meeting), Check, Raise, or Fold: The Risky Business of IP (Chair, F&L 11th Annual IP Conference, 9/15), Trade Secret Protection and Enforcement in the U.S. (NBA Annual Conference, 7/15), Patents/Trade Secrets Overview (Client CLE, 4/15 and 7/15), Whats next? We've been helping experienced inventors, first-time inventors, and businesses (and their in-house legal teams) protect their inventions and brands with patents and trademarks since 2004. I could see the beads of sweat on his forehead, because he was probably like, Oh my God, Gills said, Is my GC going to think she is fabulous?. With a Ph.D. in Physical Chemistry, Dr. Black combines a strong scientific background and legal training to assist clients in obtaining and making use of their intellectual property rights. Comparatively, there are 7.9% of the Hispanic or Latino ethnicity and 6.5% of the Asian ethnicity. Boosting Your IP Fitness for the Next Business Cycle (Chair, F&L 12th Annual IP Conference, 9/16), Women of Color and Diversity and Inclusion at Firms and in Corporations: Working Group to Develop Solutions for 2017 (CCWC, 9/16), In-House Counsel Panel: Is the Billable Hour Dead? (NBA Annual Conference, 7/16), The Ins and Outs of Equity Partnership (The Chicago Committee, 7/16), Whats Reasonable? She recalls a session at a partner retreat last year for introducing members of the management committee. After extensive research and analysis, Zippia's data science team found that: 20.7% of patent attorneys are women and 79.3% of patent attorneys are men. Jamaalfrequently lectures on intellectual property law to attorneys and other professionals. We do some outreach to undergrads, and even students in middle and high school., Recruitment, said Joseph Drayton, a Cooley LLP partner and former National Bar Association president, should be followed with proper training, access to premium work including repetition in assignments specific to patent matters, tracking of work and success in execution of assignments.. McCoy was denied. Do you need help protecting your ideas, designs, methods or other types of intellectual property? Return to our main appellate law firm page. Women, Influence & Power in Law UK Awards 2023, Legalweek Leaders in Tech Law Awards 2023, WORKERS COMPENSATION ATTORNEY - Hartford, CT, Offering an Opportunity of a Lifetime for Personal Injury Lawyers, What Does Your Business Agreement Really Mean? Using a database of 30 million profiles, Zippia estimates demographics and statistics for patent attorneys in the United States. As an African American Patent Attorney, she is an active member of The Chicagos first Black Inventors Organization and provides assistance to African American Inventors throughout the United States. Gills, however, was prepared for whatever curveball he could throw at me, and the GC decided to hire her on. Each attorney is granted unlimited access to high quality, on-demand premium content from well-respected faculty in the legal industry along with administrative access to easily manage CLE for the entire team. Some examples of the most popular Black bar associations in the country include: John Mercer Langston Bar Association; Black Lawyers Association of Cincinnati; Black Women Lawyers' Association; Association of Black Women Attorneys; and. He made me the leader of the Silicon Valley office. There are a number of talented African American attorneys, men and women, who for years now have represented clients, said Pierce, the former chair of the IP section of the National Bar Association, the largest national network of predominantly Black attorneys and judges. Over 160 years ago, in 1857, the U.S. commissioner of patents said a slaves invention couldnt be patented. Even before she became the famous author we know today, she was already making history: At just 16 years old, she became the first black female streetcar conductor in San . As in-house counsel, Alex developed strategy and managed dozens of patent cases in 5 countries, including 3 ITC trials, District Court cases, a UK trial, a German trial, and 2 China cases . Just based on the number of employees within each industry, we were able to determine the most common industries that employ patent attorneys. Her second invention was a sole for footwear that was patented in 1917 in the United States and in Canada. CAN I USE MY TRADEMARK ON PROMOTIONAL ITEMS? Like Turner, Drayton believes that the COVID-19 pandemic has eliminated many of the distractions of day-to-day life, creating something of a captive audience for the injustices that have been unfurling in Minneapolis and elsewhere. The figures are particularly damning for African American lawyers. She previously served on the board of the Illinois Campaign for Political Reform and previously served for six years on the Evening Associates Board of the Art Institute of Chicago and mentored high school students through Links Unlimited. About Us| Born as Marguerite Johnson on April 4, 1928, Maya Angelou was a renowned poet, educator, and civil rights activist who moved to the Bay Area at the age of 14. Another problem is a gap in those who leave college with degrees in patent-intensive fields like science, technology, engineering, and math, experts say. 342B Park Avenue Unit B2 The diversity gap in the patent system has deep historical roots, Northeastern University law professor Kara Swanson said. So youre starting from a limited population to begin with, said Azuka Dike, a patent attorney at Banner Witcoff who is a liaison to the American Bar Associations Commission on Racial and Ethnic Diversity in the Profession. She was similarly the attorney of record, when her younger brother, Edgar P. Benjamin (18691972), received U.S. patent no. When you look at that requirement, you must then consider the population of black college students, or post-college grads that have that technical background. Using the Census Bureau data, we found out how the percentage of each ethnic category trended between 2010-2019 among patent attorneys. A lot of what keeps you in it is, Im part of the team. There are relatively simple steps that firms can take too. FURTHER DUPLICATION WITHOUT PERMISSION IS PROHIBITED. You could start there, she said. Foley & Lardners Gills faces the double challenge of practicing patent law while being black and female. The ramifications go beyond individual inventors. Between 2008 and 2018, this is how the number of patent attorneys changed. The map here shows where patent attorneys earn the highest salaries in the U.S. Past results do not guarantee future results. 1. Clients, attorneys say, are among the greatest gatekeepers for helping Black lawyers excel. Within the legal profession, clients, firm management and associates have been reaching out to ask about ways they can help. That bothered Turner. The patent is one of the so-called "X-patents," a group of 10,000 or so patents issued by the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office between its creation in 1790 and 1836, when a fire began in . Growing Mineola firm with national practice seeks associate (with 3-6 years experience) to handle complex general liability matters.Competit CASH KRUGLER & FREDERICKS LLC is Celebrating Our 20th Anniversary & Newest Partners! *** In 1906, the Boston Daily Globe reported that Through the untiring efforts of Miss Miriam E. Benjamin of Boston, a clerk in one of the Departments at Washington, $10,482 has been awarded Samuel Lee, a negro, who was elected to congress 25 years ago, but never sworn in. Benjamin lobbied to bring the bill to aid Samuel Lee before Congress nine times, until it finally passed in 1906. By looking through more than 961 resumes, we found that the most popular places for patent attorneys are Washington, DC and Chicago, IL. That practice, in and of itself, said this process is not for you, said Shontavia Johnson, an attorney and entrepreneur who also serves as associate vice president for entrepreneurship and innovation at Clemson University. We encourage you to be active with one (or more!) As a dialogue springs up around systemic racism, lawyers like Kirkland & Ellis' Ellisen Turner and Foley & Lardner's Jeanne Gills say there's no more excuse for clients not to include black patent lawyers on their Rolodexes. Jeanne also serves as vice chair of the firms national Intellectual Property Department focusing on Strategic Marketing & Business Development, and she previously served as vice chair of the Intellectual Property Litigation Practice. This section highlights information about where patent attorneys work. Fraline J. Allgaier is an intellectual property law attorney in Glencoe, Illinois. Letsallget involved. Do I care? Copyright 2023 ALM Global, LLC. A registered patent attorney, he uses his background in biomedical engineering to prosecute even the most challenging patent applications for medical device technologies. Lawyers and other IP professionals also have a responsibility to help diverse entrepreneurs and inventors, said Deborah Lodge, a partner at Squire Patton Boggs who has participated in New Voices Foundation educational programs about IP protection. University of Nebraska College of Law Professor A. Christal Sheppard was in her last year of completing a PhD in molecular biology before considering becoming a patent lawyer. This chart breaks down the ages of patent attorney employees. The cost of getting a patent, which can run into the thousands of dollars, and a lack of early exposure to the patent system present barriers to already marginalized communities. 79% of Patent Attorneys are male, and 20% are female, so there are more male Patent Attorneys than female Patent Attorneys in the United States. in biology from Texas Southern University in 1994, Ms. Allgaier went on to graduate in 1996 summa cum laude with an M.S. Black IP Lawyers Who've Made It Look to Grow Ranks Beyond 1.7% Bloomberg Law August 6, 2020 "The rarity of being a Black intellectual property lawyer in the United States hits home for the 1.7% of attorneys who fit that description." Read the article The technical knowledge of handling a trial, and the marketability of that knowledgethat could never be taken from me. Jeffer Mangels Butler & Mitchell LLP - Patent Litigation Lawyer. He has particular experience in patent preparation, prosecution and counseling in the fields of medical devices, optics, semiconductors, superconductors, lasers, solid state physics, RF and radar electronics, television/display technologies, software, electrochemical and optical sensors, organic and organometallic chemistry, pharmaceuticals, polymers and DNA assays. Stan Gibson is a trial lawyer who focuses on high-stakes cases involving technology. I have seen, in my career, people who presume from the outset that I could not be handed much responsibility, because they didnt think I belonged in the responsibility-carrying club, Smith said. Id been in the department for three years and had seen that professor many times, said Longsworth, who went on to earn a doctorate. An active participant in several professional organizations, Ms. Allgaier is a lifetime member of the Black Women Lawyers Association of Greater Chicago, Inc., and she also belongs to the National Association of Patent Practitioners and the American Intellectual Property Law Association. Stanley M. Gibson. Early in his career, Kilpatrick Stockton & Townsend partner Mitchell Stockwell put Waldrop on a trial team in an important case. Apart from racism, Black IP attorneys say there are distinct reasons why they make up just 1.7% of their specialty, a figure based on a survey by the American Intellectual Property Law Association. That is why we will be opening our Members Only Job Opportunities database which will be updated regularly with positions sent directly to us by companies seeking to hire diverse applicants. Take that on.. Drayton suggests that Milbank partner Errol Taylor, Perkins Coie partner Dennis Hopkins and Latham & Watkins partner Tara Elliott also would be included on any list of accomplished black patent attorneys. The racial divide persists for many reasons that dont lend themselves to simple fixes. Miriam E. Benjamin was born in South Carolina to a well-off family with a wide and influential social circle, and developed into an ambitious, confident and persistent young woman. Theres a lack of visibility -- I wouldnt say I didnt know it existed, but it never occurred to me, as a career. Contact Us| However, it was common for patent practitioners at the time to acquire patent expertise through informal means, including apprenticeships, correspondence courses, and learning by doing as patentees. Dr. Black has served a variety of clients ranging from multinational corporations to small start-up companies and individual inventors. But she also said Black attorneys like her have faced a higher hurdle when trying to secure client work. Cooley partner Joseph Drayton, the immediate past president of the National Bar Association, would certainly belong on such a list, Turner said. Theyve never really seen it, its not something theyre aware of..

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